Host
Jag Dhaliwal
Guests
- Alan Vallance, CEO, ICAEW
- Gian Power, Founder and CEO, TLC Lions
Producer
Ed Adams
Transcript
Jag Dhaliwal: Hello and welcome to ICAEW Student Insights. My name is Jag Dhaliwal, and this podcast is all about learning how the world of work is changing for finance professionals. Today, we’re discussing how you can become a better communicator and presenter. Whether you’re working with clients, colleagues or senior stakeholders, we’ll be sharing tips and advice to help you achieve your goals, all while keeping your audience engaged.
Alan Vallance: I know so many people who are so brave, but actually, when you put them in front of an audience, they really struggle.
Gian Power: We can throw facts and figures and numbers, statistics, reports – but a story is what will captivate.
JD: To share more on this topic, I’m joined by ICAEW Chief Executive Alan Vallance, and later today, we’ll hear from Gian Power, chartered accountant and Founder and CEO of people consultancy TLC Lions. Hi Alan, thanks for coming into the studio today.
AV: Hi Jag. It’s great to be here.
JD: So, Alan, tell us a bit about your career. How did you go from qualifying as a chartered accountant to becoming the Chief Executive of ICAEW?
AV: Well, how long have we got? I started my career a very long time ago now. So I trained with what was then Ernst & Whinney, which became Ernst & Young eventually. And I started out doing audit, sort of chartered accountancy training, mostly in the insurance sector and mostly in the City of London. So I did that, I qualified, and that was at the time when the Berlin Wall would have fallen and communism sort of ended in Eastern Europe, as it was at that time. And I was asked to go over to Budapest to do some M&A work, because all the Western companies were starting to invest in and buy the Eastern companies. So I got asked to go over and do a due diligence piece of work with United Biscuits, who ended up buying the state-owned biscuit company in Hungary, and it was a brilliant experience. But long story short, I got the travel bug. I decided to then, that fork-in-the-road decision, as a chartered accountant, do you stay in practice, or do you go into business? And I thought, I want to go into business, and I want to travel.
So I ended up working in about 20 countries in an internal audit role, and I landed and ended up residing in Australia for 21 years or so. I journeyed across lots of different sectors. I worked in the post office there. I worked for ICI Manufacturing. But the last role I had was as the Deputy Head of the weather bureau, which is the Met Office equivalent, sort of on the front line of fighting climate and weather events and tsunamis and all these wonderful things. And that got me to the United Nations in Geneva, because there’s a World Meteorological Organization, an agency that oversees all of the world’s weather and climate activity. And that got me back to Europe, and that got me back to the UK, and that got me to London. And I spent 13 years or so running professional bodies. So I was at Three before I joined ICAEW. So I’m back where it all started, really. Literally have boomeranged around the world and back.
JD: So in terms of your skills, how have presentation and communication skills helped you?
AV: Enormously – and I learned as much about what to do from doing things badly. So I’ve got a vivid memory, when I was in Australia, I was working for the post office for quite a while. I had to attend my first board meeting. I seem to recall that I didn’t do very well, and I came out of that meeting reflecting on all of that. I had to chat with the guy I was working for at the time, and I ended up signing up for this six-day course on what was called “presentation mastery”, but it was about how you tell a great story in front of an audience, and how you present a case. And that set me on a journey of, I’m really happy now being in front of people, but I think it’s real challenge for chartered accountants, because we’re trained in, you know, technical skills, in really important things, but those soft skills, I think, are so important as well.
JD: So would you then encourage our listeners to go on kind of similar courses and sign up to training to really improve those skills?
AV: I’d definitely say to people, never stop learning and find out what you’re good at and find out what you’re not good at. Be prepared to get constructive feedback from people, because if you don’t know what you’re good at or what you need to develop in, then how are you going to do it? And I would then say, once you know that, find places to go, people to talk to, who can help you to improve those skills, because you can never have enough in your kit bag. And in terms of communication skills and presentation skills, I know so many people who are, you know, impressive people who are so brave, but actually, when you put them in front of an audience, they, you know, they really struggle.
And I think that is a real opportunity for people to sort of continue to learn. And some of those skills were so enjoyable. I had great fun learning all of that stuff. And when you stand in front of a group of people, whoever they are, you’re about, you know, delivering a message to them, and you need to get them to accept that message. And whether that’s an audience of 400 people in a theatre, or it’s an audit committee, or it’s a client, you have to understand what they want to know from you. You know, that sort of thing about “know your audience”. But I think the acquisition of skills is so important. So it’s good to see – I’ll do the sponsor plug now – ICAEW Communication Skills. If you Google that, you’ll get the ICAEW’s page, which has a whole host of tips on where to go and some of the things you can do to improve communication skills. So, but whether it’s ICAEW or other organisations, you know, go out there and get it, because you’ll never regret it.
JD: That’s definitely something that I want to look at, actually. I recently received some feedback where, I think, my presentation skills weren’t tailored enough to who I was kind of speaking to. So I think the way that I was presenting was more of a technical piece that should have kind of been toned down a bit and, you know, adapted to the listener. So do you have any tips as to how best to do that?
AV: As you say, you have to know who you’re talking to. I’ve got tips by way of what I did wrong and what somebody told me to do differently. And it’s really interesting, having worked for different professional bodies now. I was the Chief Executive at the RIBA, which is the institute of architects, and I came along with my kit bag of skills as a chartered accountant and sort of seasoned general manager, C-suite officer. And the President there at the time, a lady called Jane Duncan, said to me: “What you need to do with architects is draw pictures, because we speak in pictures. We don’t speak in tables and figures like accountants do.” And I thought that was such a powerful message, because I hadn’t really thought that through.
Understanding that now, and you know, talking to people in different ways, it’s not only what you say, it’s the visual representation, and it’s other forms of communication. You really have to understand who you’re talking to. So to the extent that you can do that kind of audience analysis that people used to refer to it as, if you can do that beforehand, that’s great, because you really then understand who you’re dealing with. Or you take time to build relationships with the people that you need to work with. That’s so important.
JD: So it’s just really understanding the audience’s background as well and kind of how they see things.
AV: Every scenario where you’re put in a position where you’re communicating to people is different, and you shouldn’t assume that you could just deal with everybody in a one-size-fits-all way, because it just doesn’t work. At the end of the day, whatever you do as a chartered accountant in preparing, you know, assuring accounts or reporting on accounts, they’re about delivering a message, ultimately, to the user of the accounts or the companies or the audit committees. And I think the role we play is effectively translating that information into ways that people can understand more effectively. And you can’t do that by just writing a report. Sometimes you have to find a way to work with the receiver of the information and understand that they’ve got the message. And it’s only through your ability to communicate with somebody that you can really deliver that message.
And I’ve, really in, you know, over the last 10 to 12 years since I’ve been doing these sorts of roles, it’s very clear that the value that we add as chartered accountants and business leaders is really critical, because investors or governing bodies, or whoever it is, are looking to you to provide them with the assurance that you know, you know what you’re talking about, that you can tell them what’s actually happening. So that kind of business advisor role the chartered accountants have really become, back in my day, it was much more about the kind of financial reporting, financial controller, early days of what is a CFO, and a CFO being a business leader. I think that’s really quite, you know, it’s come around a long way since I was first qualifying.
JD: So if you had one tip for our listeners in terms of how to really improve their communication skills, what would that be?
AV: I would say, well, I’ve got a couple of tips. Never stop learning. Be prepared to learn new skills if you haven’t got them. But I had a, the boss when I was at the weather bureau who used to say: “You need to listen with big ears.” Because if you listen to them and understand what they want, your chances of communicating in a way that they’re going to understand and tick and accept or agree or be convinced is so much more.
JD: That’s really great advice. Thank you so much, Alan, for your time today.
AV: Thanks, Jag.
JD: Now, I’m keen to get Gian’s insight on this topic, both as a fellow chartered accountant and as a fellow chief executive. Thanks for joining us today. Gian.
Gian Power: Thanks for having me, Jag.
JD: So you founded TLC Lions back in 2018. Can you tell me what that business offers and how it came into existence?
GP: Yeah, of course. I’ll do, though, in the other, other way then. So how it came into existence was, look, I started my career in finance, actually. Joined PwC, obviously one of the Big Four, joining their restructuring practice. I’d always loved entrepreneurship, though, from a young age, and so I thought, where shall I join? And I joined restructuring. So I was fascinated of, how do we turn a business around? How do we learn about cash flow, etc? I was doing my ACA at the same time, joined there in September 2014. Life was good. Everything was good. I was very grateful.
Fast track to May of 2015 and, one day in May of 2015, my life pretty much changed forever. And it was the 8th of May in 2015, so normal day. I remember heading on, my suit and tie, to the offices near London Bridge. And that morning, my father called me and, in short, he had to go overseas on business to India. My dad took a flight. He called me, and I never heard from my dad ever again. Without going into all the depth, my dad went missing for about three weeks, and I started a campaign in the media to try and find him and bring him home. But then I got a phone call one day that really did change my life when somebody had confessed to murdering my dad in the Punjab in the northern region of India.
Now, at the time, Jag, I was 23 years old, I was in the middle of my ACA. I remember I was studying two of the modules, and life changed dramatically. And, you know, a lot happened, but I’ve always been somebody who, I have to keep on going. I’ll always keep on smiling. Nobody can kind of take that away from you. And so I found myself in a situation where I was leading a murder investigation internationally. Wanted to look after my mum and my sister, wanted to do well at work, because I liked things based on merit, and also didn’t want to stop my exams. I didn’t want to go behind. So I carried on studying. But I found myself suddenly at the BBC, then I was at the police station, then I was running in to do an exam, and I just kept balancing it.
But alongside this, something else I was noticing, and that was that the partners at the firm in particular, my leaders, it was those who were the most human, who told the best stories, who really cared for you, that you wanted to work harder for. You wanted to be like them. They were your role models. And you look at every company, there’s good and bad, but I also noticed that we had to do more to make workplaces more human, and I started to think that everybody I spoke to about my story was in the media. They shared a story back. Everybody has a story. And actually, when we can get the inside out, you know, storytelling doesn’t make us less professional, it makes us more human.
So fast track, 2018, I decided to leave PwC. Big decision. Launched TLC Lions – Lion is mine and my father’s middle name – and today we are on a mission, and it’s a mission to humanise the working world. We have a network of 100 of our lions. They are our global trainers, speakers, coaches. We’re very selective from the Americas, Europe and Japan and beyond, and yeah, we work with now about 300 organisations globally. All of the Big Four are clients of ours and anywhere else, from high-end luxury to Atlantis, Marriott, Hyatt, you name it. And we really work across people and performance, culture and change and brand storytelling, ultimately driving an emotional connection for all employees to who they work for and why they work there.
JD: I’m sure our listeners will see the inspiration in that and the incredible motivation that you did have to then still pursue and make something really beautiful out of what was a really difficult situation. In terms of the storytelling piece and the power in the workplace, how important do you really think that is?
GP: When we look in the workplace – and anybody listening, where that’s, you know, start of your career, if you’re a leader, you’re managing people – if you want to influence somebody with impact, if you want to take them on a journey and inspire your team, you need to be telling stories. If you are client-facing and you need to develop a relationship. Guess what? You need to understand their story and tell a story. And so storytelling is everywhere.
JD: I’ve never even thought about it like that. I just kind of see it, well, these are the financial statements for the year, and this is kind of our audit opinion that you’d have to put on it. But, then, you should also then convey it as a story, because I guess it is a year of things that have happened, and more to come.
GP: And it is that, you know, you go back to Aristotle, so father of storytelling, there’s a beginning, a middle and end. We all know that. And you can apply that to so many situations. If you give me financial statements over a one-year, three-year period, it’s actually, the beginning is, what’s the context here for somebody who’s never even understood these accounts? Who’s the client? What’s happening? Give some context. Then it’s, what’s the key message? What’s the middle? What do I want to land here? What’s the key points? What’s the key movements been? If that’s cash or it’s accounts receivable, who knows what it is? And then finally, what’s the action that I want this audience to take away? What’s that key message? What’s the ending?
JD: What tip can you give our listeners to help them really storytell the best? How can they present the best?
GP: Well, do you know what, storytelling is one powerful way. But I’m going to kind of take a step back. Let’s, let’s go basic, if that’s OK, and I’m going to let you in on some of the things that I’ve observed and learned over the years. So number one, and I’m sat here on this podcast, if you’re about to go and present, always – because your mouth will get a little bit dry, especially if we’re nervous – it’s have a drink of water. Nobody can hear this. But like mouthwash, you swill it around your mouth. Nobody can hear that. Don’t do it like it’s mouthwash in your bathroom, right? But do that. That will really open up your mouth, it’s easier to talk. Number one.
To let you in on tip number two here, it’s called the 7-38-55 rule. Some research back in the 1970s. Our words are powerful, we know that, but those words are only 7% of the impact. Seven. Yeah, so where’s the 93? Now, the 7-38-55 rule says that 7% of the impact you’ll have are the words that you’ve written down. Cool. Thirty-eight per cent is your intonation. It’s your energy, because it’s not just what you say, it’s how you say it. I could sit here on this podcast like this with you and tell you five tips of this, or I can pause and I could say, let’s think about that one. Well, what about this one? It’s that intonation that engages an audience. Third one, very powerful. Fifty-five per cent is body language. So, for example, now we’re on a podcast, nobody can actually see us, so the words and the intonation become far more important as well, because 55%, people can’t see us right now. The point is, if you’re going to present, think about that. Have your script, sure, but then think, who is my audience? What’s the setup? I’ve got a talk in Dubai next week, 200 people in the audience, I know it’s a long, skinny stage. So I’m, like, pacing. My wife’s looking at me, like, what you doing? I’m, like, pacing up and down our hallway, because I know that’s the setup. So next time you’ve got a presentation, think, what’s the setup going to be? 7-38-55. Practice out that intonation. Pause… where you want to drop a message. Think about your body language and your eye contact. I promise you, it’s going to level up your game when it comes to communicating.
But my most important thing, I just say, be yourself, because I was actually in our beloved ICAEW in Moorgate recently, which I love, but a shout-out to the location. And I remember seeing three chaps. I don’t know who they are. They were clearly prepping for a pitch and they were having some banter before. And I thought, these have really got a good vibe going on here. Then they went into pitch mode. And Jag, it just all left them. This personality, this authenticity, this everything just went, and then it went into corporate mode. “Hi there. We’re here today to go through XYZ.” I was like, guys, you’ve lost it. You’ve lost the thing that comes most naturally to you, and it’s gone. And guess what? Clients are going to connect with the human – and if that goes, your competitor’s going to win that pitch.
JD: I feel I can understand where they’ve come from, though, because I think then stepping back into that corporate role, sometimes people find it hard to then still bring their personality. Are there any tips that you can give to really mesh them together and still keep who you are, but then deliver the message that you want to?
GP: I believe, if you’re studying for your ACA, if you’ve been in the corporate world, we all get it, right, like you got it: there’s a professionalism to it. But don’t let that take away who you are, because otherwise you become like everybody else. You’re not going to stand out. And nobody was born to fit in.
JD: I couldn’t agree more with what you’re saying, to be honest, Gian. I’ve even found in my role, when I build rapport, when I have those conversations, when I kind of say please and thank you, and it’s just the little things, they go a long way. And especially when you do, as you’ve said, tell the story – why do you want to collect those samples? Why is that important? – they’ll be much more willing to give you the information, then, that you need, rather than it, kind of, being constant back and forth and just taking longer to get there.
GP: The other thing I’ll say to people is like, rather than – I hate the question, what do you do? I know it’s important and we need to know what people do. But if you’re at like, a networking event or meeting a client for the first time, get curious on why people do what they do. You know, Alan today, I was asking him before this: “Oh, why did you go from insurance into architecture, into accounting? That’s fascinating.” When you ask why, people open up – about their purpose, about what they care about, and it will help you build rapport far more
JD: So you completed the ACA qualification back in 2017. What skills have you found the most useful, and particularly as a CEO?
GP: You know what? As they say in any organisation, like, finance really is the backbone of a company. And I’m so, so grateful to have got through those 15 exams and to have my ACA. When setting up a company, sure, you might look at your product market fit, your marketing. I’m going to go into a kind of startup speech now. But this is where anybody can go in their career. You’ve got to understand the numbers. You’ve got to understand, OK, what’s my business model here? What’s my pricing? You know, what’s my revenue, what’s my margins, what’s my gross margins? Okay, that’s impacted by my cost of sales. What’s my net profit, what’s my EBITDA? It is surprising how many people don’t know all of this. And it’s, it comes as basics, maybe for us who’ve done that ACA, and you shouldn’t take it for granted, because we might be around each other all the time who’ve all got this skill set. But I tell you what, if you go out there and you’re not among people with an ACA, you will stand out like a shining star.
Just having those three letters that you’ve worked so hard for, ACA, that gives such credibility. That front of that pitch deck: Gian Power ACA. They’re like, know what, he already knows his stuff. So, yeah, super powerful. Finance is the backbone of a company. And please don’t underestimate the skill set that everybody has if you’ve gone through the ACA. It is so sought after, not just in the corporate world, but in the startup world. And go out there and shout about it.
JD: Feel you’re really inspiring our listeners to just go away and just start their own companies.
GP: Do it. Honestly. But you know, whether you stay in the corporate world, professional services, you go and join a scale-up where they’re looking for, you know, people in the finance team or a head of finance, I’m really passionate, now we’re on here and we’ve got this platform – find what you love. Your skill set in finance is applicable to any industry around the world. So if you can unlock your passion, what you really care about, I tell you what. There’s no company that doesn’t have finance, and if they don’t, you better get in there quick, because they need you.
JD: Gian, you’ve shared so many valuable tips that our listeners can definitely go away with. Before we finish up today, I want to say thanks again to Alan and Gian for coming into the studio and sharing their insights. Thank you both.
AV: Thanks, Jag. It’s been a pleasure.
GP: Thanks so much.
JD: Make sure you visit ICAEW Student Insights for ongoing support during your studies with ICAEW. On the Student Insights hub, you’ll find exam guides, tips and advice on completing the ACA and ICAEW CFAB, and inspiring stories of students and recently qualified members. That’s all available icaew.com/studentinsights.
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