Host
Jag Dhaliwal
Guests
- Melanie Coeshott, career coach and founder, Blue Diamond
- Simon Gray, Head of Business, ICAEW
Producer
Ed Adams
Transcript
Jag Dhaliwal: Hello and welcome to ICAEW Student Insights. My name is Jag Dhaliwal, and this podcast is all about learning how the world of work is changing for finance professionals. Today we’re discussing the steps that will help you reach your career goals, whatever they might be. In particular, we’ll be looking at how to build your personal brand as a young professional…
[Melanie Coeshott: Don’t be afraid to reach out to people. Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Do a bit of exploring.]
JD: …and why it’s important to have an elevator pitch for yourself.
[Simon Gray: What you need to do is to communicate something that doesn’t say your role and who you work for, but it says something about the value that you add.]
JD: To share more on this topic, I’m joined by Melanie Coeshott, chartered accountant and founder of coaching firm Blue Diamond, and later today we’ll hear from Simon Gray, former recruiter and now head of business at ICAEW.
Hi, Melanie.
Melanie Coeshott: Hi, it’s lovely to be here.
JD: Can you share a bit about Blue Diamond?
MC: Yes, Blue Diamond is a coaching business. I coach and I actually train accountants – accountants and finance professionals. Some of these accountants are individuals that come to me. They are mainly interested in career development, navigating their careers, how to get promoted, how to land that next job, or what do I do with my next career steps as well? That’s the first kind of people I work with. I also work with accountancy firms and finance teams, and it’s amazing how wonderful it is to meet so many aspirational and aspiring accountants in my journey.
JD: So what is it that you really enjoy? Is it that nurturing aspect that you touched on?
MC: Yes, definitely the nurturing aspect, and helping people flourish and grow. Often when they come to me, it’s not like they’re in a bad place, but they know that things can be better, and helping them, seeing them grow in confidence, seeing them try things out, seeing the progress – that’s just wonderful. I love doing all of that.
JD: Something that we often hear thrown around is the term ‘personal branding’. I’ve heard it so much. What does that actually mean?
MC: I love the Jeff Bezos quote about this: “Your personal brand is what people say about you when you’re not in the room.” We all have a personal brand, whether we know it or not, or whether we like the fact that we have one or not. We can’t control what people say about us, especially when we’re not in the room, but we can influence that, and we can influence it and shape it in a way that works for us.
We actually get to choose what our personal brand is – and whether it’s thinking about three words or looking at feedback that people give us, we can shape this. We can shape this in everything that we do, what we say, what we don’t say, what we do, what we don’t do. We have a chance every day to strengthen and support our personal brand. So yes, it is up to us. We can definitely influence this.
Often our personal brand is very true to us. It’s authentic to us. But it’s about turning up the volume so that people can really ‘get’ us and really get what we want them to know about us.
JD: How important is it for accountants and the young professionals who are listening to start thinking about their personal brand early on in their careers?
MC: It’s definitely important, because we work with other people all the time. Whether these are managers or other stakeholders, these people are going to play a critical role in our development and our progression. And being aware of what people say about us, what they might be saying about us when we’re not in the room, or even taking cues from people – that’s really important, because we’re not operating in isolation.
JD: You mentioned previously as well, if you’ve got a personal brand that doesn’t really reflect you – how hard is that then to overcome and to kind of reshape?
MC: I think the first thing with any of this is actually finding out what people are saying about you. We can do that through more formal feedback. But the best thing and the easiest thing that I recommend is asking three to five people for three to five words which describe you. This is a really easy and quick way of getting some positive feedback.
Most people are going to say nice things, positive words, because it’s more comfortable, but it’s a great way of finding out very quickly how you’re coming across. We can’t always see that. We can only see the world directly through our eyes. Some of those words might be very similar, or some of those words might be the same. That’s a great indication of how we’re coming across. And if those words are aligned with how we want to come across, then that’s great.
Maybe there’s some room to shape them, though. So if people say we’re reliable and actually we don’t want to just be known as the reliable person, but we want to be known as the… I don’t know, the insightful person or something… then that’s our opportunity to take some actions, say some things, do some things that bring out that insight, so that, yes, we’re still reliable, but that’s almost a given, that’s not what our unique selling point.
JD: Those three to five people – could it be anyone? Who is best?
MC: I think a range of people is useful. Actually, I was working with somebody on this yesterday and she’d asked her husband, she’d asked her boss, she’d asked somebody who works for her, she’d asked a peer and a friend. She had a real variety of people, and it was incredible – the consistency that came back in terms of the words, the adjectives that they used.
So you can choose anybody. You can just choose people that work for you, or people senior to you. But I think getting a variety gives you a more rounded perspective.
JD: It doesn’t have to be just in the workplace?
MC: Yes, your personal life as well. Because our brand… if we’re somebody completely different at work to out of work, then that raises the question of, well, how authentic are we being?
JD: How can having a personal brand and strong sense of identity in the workplace really help accountants pursue and achieve their career goals?
MC: I think it’s really important that we take control of our careers from an early age. Often when we’re training, we know what’s going to happen in the first couple of years, the first few years of our training contracts, and we can already start to shape that. But it becomes even more important once we’ve got beyond that. But even during the training contract, think about… This is a great opportunity. What kind of clients do I want to work with, or what kind of work do I want to do afterwards? Do I want to stay in audit, or do I want to go into tax? Do I want to explore other things that are within the firm that I’m working for? But it’s up to us to think about that early on. And yes, we might get some lucky breaks, but actually, it’s our careers, we own them, and the sooner we start thinking about those things, the sooner we are going to be shaping them, working on the things that matter to us.
JD: What can they do to really help understand who they are, what they’re like, that sense of identity?
MC: That starts with some personal reflection. We don’t always take the time to do that, so I would say, give yourself some time. That doesn’t necessarily mean sitting down at your laptop or sitting down with a notebook, but sometimes taking yourself off for a walk, or sometimes in the shower or these unexpected things, but giving yourself a chance to think about you.
The great news is there’s no one type of accountant, especially these days – there’s so many different opportunities, and we can really be ourselves and shape our career. But that first point is giving ourselves some time. And then thinking about people around us that inspire us. Whether these are people one year ahead of us or people you know much further on in their careers, what is it that they do? What is it that forms part of their daily duties, or their world, that attracts you to them? And learning more about that. I think most people would be quite happy to spend a bit of time with somebody talking about their career, and whether it’s acting in a formal mentoring capacity or just giving them a coffee or half an hour, I think most people are happy to spend that time. So don’t be afraid to reach out to people. Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Look around and do a bit of exploring.
JD: What are your views on reaching out on, say, LinkedIn? Would you recommend that?
MC: I think LinkedIn is a great tool, and I often talk to people about the snail. This got referred to in a training session the other day as Melanie’s snail, six months after they’d learnt it. I get a big piece of paper and draw a spiral on it, and I note down people that I was at school with first of all, in the middle, and then I kind of spiral out up to the present day. Now, people training… maybe they feel they don’t have too many contacts, but just noting down those contacts… you can’t remember everyone, but then looking them up, where are these people today? And some of these might be other accountants. Some of these might be other people doing other things. Get in connection with them, but use the snail, use LinkedIn, use these tools to brainstorm and then collate your contacts together.
JD: The snail’s definitely something our listeners can take away.
Are there any areas that accountants and finance professionals maybe struggle with when it comes to personal branding?
MC: A lot of the time we feel that a good job should speak for itself. That’s certainly what I was brought up to think and believe, and it can do. Sometimes we get noticed just for doing a good job. But it doesn’t always pay off. I think sometimes we expect people to notice and value and reward us for the work that we do, and it doesn’t always happen. And then we can get frustrated because of that.
We need to tell people, and to be able to tell people we need to give ourselves credit. So periodically, whether it’s quarterly or a couple of times a year – and this can coincide with your appraisal, or whatever your organisation does – we owe it to ourselves to do this for ourselves as well. It’s a muscle that we do need to strengthen. I think we’re not naturally inclined that way as accountants. And actually, there’s nothing wrong with it.
JD: Some people might be listening and thinking that, for them, it might be quite uncomfortable in a way to say, “Oh, I’ve done this,” or “Look at these great things I’ve done.” And like you’ve said, it might not come naturally to them. Are there any strategies or things that they could implement to do that well?
MC: A lot of that comes from inner confidence, and I think if we get into this practice of giving ourselves that credit first, then it will become more natural. One of the tools that I love doing is taking a blank piece of paper and I start at the top, and I write down all the things I’ve ever achieved. You can start anywhere. I always think back to my spelling tests and my swimming badges and my Brownie badges. We don’t need to list out every single achievement, but actually going through this process is really good in terms of saying, “Actually, look what I’ve achieved, I’ve done some great stuff,” and it can be amazing for building up our confidence.
Now, if we’ve got that inner confidence, and then we’ve got that list of… well, these are the things I’ve done this quarter or this year… it’s building up that sense of worth internally.
JD: One area that you focus on, Melanie, is supporting the career of professionals, and in particular women. Do you find that there are any barriers that women face?
MC: There’s a wonderful book, which I didn’t write but I will plug this book anyway. It’s called How Women Rise, and it identifies a number of habits that not just women but many people demonstrate. The first habit is not claiming credit for our achievements, and the second one is expecting other people to notice. So if we’re getting frustrated because other people are not noticing us, then it’s not their fault. They’re in their own head, or they’re busy with their own responsibilities. We have a duty to them and a responsibility to ourselves to share some of those things.
Some of the points that we were talking about before, they’re not exclusive to women but I find more women clients come to me with some of these challenges as well. And the problem is that leads to frustration, and that leads to maybe us not realising our potential as much as we could. And I think that’s a shame, as individuals but a shame collectively as women as well.
JD: Thank you so much for those insights, Melanie. That was really useful.
MC: My pleasure.
JD: I know Simon is also going to have some great insights on this topic, both as a former recruiter of accountants and as ICAEW’s Head of Business. Thanks for coming into the studio today, Simon.
SG: Hi Jag. My pleasure. Great to be here.
JD: Can you share a bit about your role as head of business at ICAEW?
SG: Absolutely. So, I’m an ICAEW Chartered Accountant. I was a volunteer for many years and joined as head of business back in November 2021. The role of head of business is responsible for our 76,000 members in business, so quite a few of them, and it’s multifaceted really. My job is to make sure that we present content, events, conferences that are of interest to members on a whole host of different topics.
I work with our public policy teams – our ICAEW Manifesto recently ahead of the general election is something we worked on as part of the business team. I also work with our education and training teams in terms of employers and the ACA qualification in industry. So it’s really broad-based across the whole of ICAEW and a really interesting role.
JD: Before joining ICAEW you founded a recruitment agency and worked as a career coach. How did you get into recruitment?
SG: Before founding my own recruitment business, I worked for a recruitment agency for about five or six years. I went to a recruitment agency having qualified in the Big Four and looking for a job in industry. I had a number of conversations with a recruiter, and one day they turned around to me and said, “Have you thought about recruitment?” And I said, “No, not really.” They must have seen something in me. And I was curious. It seemed like an opportunity that would give me, fairly early on in my career, the opportunity to own my own space. Effectively, my own business within an organisation. I began by specialising in the recruitment of part-qualified accountants.
So it was again – there’s a theme here – a multifaceted role that really sparked my interest, and taught me the fundamentals of business, which built on the bedrock of understanding business that I’d gained from my ACA qualification.
JD: Simon, you must meet many accountants and have probably seen a lot of cover letters and CVs. What helps someone stand out from the crowd?
SG: It’s a good question, and I’m going to flip the question a little bit on its head and say something quite radical. Because if you want to stand out in the job market, if you focus on a cover letter and you focus on a CV, effectively what you’re doing is doing what everyone else is doing, which makes it very difficult to stand out.
I’ve often said, and I used to say this to my career coaching clients, I used to say, “I’ve only ever read one CV from start to finish, and that’s my own.” And I was in recruitment for nearly 12, 13, years. Because people scan-read your CV, so whatever you put on the CV, some of it’s going to get read, but not all of it’s going to get read.
What I mean by that is, yes, you do need a CV, you do need a cover letter, but your approach is much more important. Instead of waiting, for example, for a job to present itself, say on a job board, there is nothing stopping you, through your networks, your contacts, through LinkedIn – which I know Melanie mentioned earlier – from approaching organisations on a more speculative basis, and doing what a recruiter does on a day-to-day basis. Don’t wait. Identify what your skills are. Identify what kind of organisation you want to work for. Irrespective of whether a job is advertised, build relationships there and make an approach.
In terms of a CV, you do need one. What’s critical on a CV is achievements. What is it that you added to a particular organisation that you worked for? What did you deliver over that period of time? In terms of a cover letter – which effectively introduces your CV, it doesn’t replicate your CV and that can be a common mistake – I recommend you need a grabber to get somebody’s attention. So the title has to be, on the cover letter, the subject line has to grab their attention. There has to be a message that communicates something where the reader thinks, wow, this person’s really got something, and I will now want to refer to their CV to find out more. And then you need a call to action. So what happens as a result? You know, if you are being speculative in the market, you can’t just send a cover letter and a CV, you have to be prepared to follow up, and that means get on the phone or send a personal message on LinkedIn, and don’t be afraid to do that.
So to stand out, to come back to the original question, it’s much more than a CV and a cover letter. It’s about taking a different approach to everybody else.
JD: Some of those things are really putting yourself out there. That can be quite daunting.
SG: Yes. I never used to be very good at public speaking. In fact, I would run a mile from any opportunity to public speak, which is an opportunity to put your personal brand out there. But you have to be prepared to turn up the volume. I think the way to do that is to reframe what, in my instance, public speaking means to me, and that fear you have – you know the anxiety fear you have, the fight or flight, which is a natural human reaction, and the same feeling that you have from fear is the same feeling that you have when you’re excited. So I reframed the whole thing and pretended actually I’m not scared, I’m quite excited to communicate a message, and it changed my whole approach to public speaking.
So if you are afraid of the LinkedIn connection, reframe what it means. Instead of you pushing your experience on somebody else, reframe it as: this organisation is doing things, I know I can help, it’s my duty, if you like, to let them know I’m here, just in case. And that’s all you’re doing. Reframe.
JD: I really like that. I’ll take that away, definitely.
SG: Good, good.
JD: The accountancy profession is always changing. Outside of strong technical skills, what is it that recruiters and employers are really looking for from today’s accountants?
SG: I think businesses now, they’re looking for people to come with the communication skills that are required in business. In business, you meet lots of different people. You have to communicate in many, many different ways. So the ability to communicate, and often, as an accountant, communicate to non-finance people in a way that they will understand is very, very important. Communication skills are key.
Going back to when I qualified, there was a big build-up to the qualification, and almost then, well, the education stops, doesn’t it? Well, the education doesn’t stop. Demonstrating to an employer that you are in the business of lifelong learning: what can you learn next? How can you improve? What can you learn to help you do your job? Being curious about what are the skills you could develop and making it known within an organisation that you’re keen to gather additional skills, which helps you network internally.
So, communication skills, being curious, getting additional skills that are relevant to your role are things that people really need to focus on. When you qualify, the education doesn’t stop. The education just continues.
JD: Let’s then talk about elevator pitches.
SG: Okay.
JD: Why is it important to have one as an accountant?
SG: Because it goes back to your question about standing out. An elevator pitch – the tradition is that you need to be able to communicate to somebody… if you get in at the bottom of the elevator, the elevator goes to the top, by the time you get out at the top, that person knows something about you that they’ll take away.
What you need to do is to communicate something that doesn’t say your role and who you work for, but it says something about the value that you add. And what that does, it sparks them to ask a qualifying question, and then you’re into a conversation. That person’s more likely to remember you when the time is right for them to engage with you.
JD: Can I ask you yours? How would you, as head of business, instead shape it to the value that you add?
SG: It’s a good question. I would say something along the lines of, I help ICAEW chartered accountants, throughout their careers, develop their career experience, develop their professional capabilities for the entirety of their career. If I’m talking to an ICAEW chartered accountant at an event, they’re probably going to say, “Hang on a minute, how do you do that?”
JD: That’s what I thought.
SG: Yes, they’re going to say that. And then I would always ask some qualifying questions. And at a networking event, I would always tend to try and go first to ask some qualifying questions, because if you know something about the person you’re talking to, with your elevator pitch then, you can gear your elevator pitch in a language and on a topic that really resonates with that person.
If I met somebody at a networking event, and I’d asked some qualifying questions, and I knew they worked in the energy sector, that is something that I would highlight as part of my elevator pitch, because I know it would have resonance with them, because it’s the sector that they work in.
So, Jag, we talked about elevator pitches. I was curious, based on what I’ve said, what yours might be at the next event that you go to?
JD: I help students within the ICAEW community to get through their exams and also help them early on in their career, if they are struggling balancing their work life and the exams.
SG: I think that’s good. I put you on the spot, but now I’m prompted to ask you another question, so you’ve achieved the goal. Thank you.
JD: Excellent. So, having worked as both an accountant and a recruiter of accountants, what advice can you share with our listeners to make sure that they’re actively working towards their career goals?
SG: Great question. I think when it comes to careers and career goals, people often view this as a stop/start thing. I’m in a job now, I’m happy in the job, I’m not looking to advance my career until it’s time to move on. That’s the wrong way to think about it. When I was an executive career coach, people would only use LinkedIn when it came to their job search, and certainly as a recruiter, we knew when people were looking to come onto the job market, because suddenly they were active on LinkedIn. So the stop/start thing doesn’t work.
Your career is something you need to think about on a daily basis. In the organisation that you work for, networking internally, putting your hand up and volunteering to do stuff, particularly if it challenges you, gets you to meet different people in the organisation, and importantly, takes you out of your comfort zone, that helps you develop your skills and helps you to advance your career internally. When it comes time to move on, you should have been building a network throughout, both internally and externally, and I think the more you’re prepared to turn up the volume, in a professional way, understand who you’re talking to, understand about yourself and what you’re trying to achieve, and you do this continuously over time, it’s amazing how doors magically suddenly open for you.
JD: It’s just putting yourself always out there, isn’t it? And just networking.
SG: Yes. When people talk about networking, sometimes people get very scared. I’m going to a networking event, what do I do? Who do I talk to? I think it’s just about being curious, being interested in people, asking some questions. What brought you here today? I think being curious with the people that you meet, and what they’re up to, what they’re doing, being curious internally in the organisation, to understand what’s going on in the bit outside of your remit is important. And this all links to lifelong learning, advancing yourself through curiosity and wanting to know more, wanting to push forward.
JD: Thank you, Simon. It’s been really insightful and great to have you here today.
SG: Thank you. My pleasure.
JD: And also to you, Melanie, thank you.
MC: My pleasure as well.
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